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McLeod, Glad (audio interview #2 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the second of three rather lengthy interviews with Glad McLeod, conducted in the living room of the apartment that she shares with her husband. Suffering from severe emphysema, she receives a steady supply of oxygen from a tank located in a back room. As before, we were interrupted during the interview by the delivery of the oxygen tanks. As noted previously, McLeod's emphysema and constant intake of oxygen resulted in abrupt, interrupted phrases. This was the first interview focused on the war years in the entire Rosie series, and I had a problem balancing the focus on the war work and a more free flowing style. Her recall of those years was particularly disappointing, especially in contrast to the rich details of her first interview. There also seemed to be some impaired memory function resulting from her physical condition, resulting in a confusing chronology. Despite these problems, McLeod remained a willing and eager narrator and her openness contributed to a relaxed interview process. 3/3/1980
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- *** File: rrrgmcleod5.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:06-4:07)... Like everyone around her, McLeod got caught up in the patriotism of the day following Pearl Harbor. She believed that the war would be short-lived and agreed to stay on at Toy Manufacturing to help fulfill the multiple contracts they gained in the early part of the war. In addition to providing laminated badges for the armed forces, defense plants and related war industries in the Los Angeles area began requesting laminated badges for security reasons. She saw working there as a chance to earn money and be patriotic. She put school on hold for the spring, but assumed the war would be over in time for her to resume classes in the fall of 1942. (4:07-4:52)... McLeod vaguely recalls hearing about the evacuation of Japanese-American, but did not find out until much later that they were being placed in concentration camps. This information was not well-publicized during the war. (4:52-6:06)... At Toy Manufacturing, during her three-week Christmas school break, McLeod made $18.50/week. When she agreed to stay on afterwards, they increased her pay to $22.50 and promoted her to in-house operations manager. She did not like the company, however, because it was a family-operated business and only a small group of people worked. She ultimately decided to quit and apply for work at Lockheed. (6:06-6:35)... During the Christmas period when she worked at Toy Manufacturing, her mother took care of her son. In January, McLeod hired a "mother's helper" to come and provide childcare for room and board and $10/week. (6:35-9:57)... McLeod met her husband (Jimmy) through her brother. At the time, he was a "starving artist." They began dating in 1940 and split up because of his drinking habits in November 1941 when her son came back home from Pennsylvania. When he swore off drinking, she agreed to take him back and they were married in January 1942 and moved into a two-bedroom apartment in Hollywood. Her son and her mother's helper slept in one room and she and her husband in the other. In late 1940, her husband got a steady job at Lockheed as an assembler and a riveter. (9:57-15:29)... When she initially sought work at Lockheed, she was told they did not have anything "mutually satisfactory." They sent her to Frank Wiggins Vocational School (later named Los Angeles Trade Technical College) to learn sheet metal skills. There were approximately twenty people in the two month training program. She recalls feeling "sheer joy" when she began working with the machinery. (15:15-18:40)... About half the people in the sheet metal training course were women. It was early in the war and men were still dominating manufacturing jobs. McLeod had a natural aptitude for sheet metal work and usually finished her projects earlier than most and was allowed to help out in the tool crib, where she learned the names and uses of the tools and equipment required for sheet metal work. The skills the students learned at Frank Wiggins were more specialized than those who were trained in the defense plants. (18:40-22:05)... Although Lockheed did not promise her a job after she finished her training course, when she returned to the plant with her training credentials, they hired her on the spot. She was scared about the prospect of not being hired, especially since she had left college to pursue a defense job. She started working in the plant a few days after she was hired. (22:05-23:32)... During the hiring process at Lockheed, McLeod was told about her rate of pay and her job assignment. When she got to her designated department, she was disappointed because her leadman put her on a drill jig instead of riveting. She had a difficult time drilling because the height of the jig was tailored to a man, not a woman. A few days later, after breaking several drill bits, she told her leadman that she wanted to rivet and he placed her in the tail cone. (23:32-24:56)... McLeod recounts her first impressions of Lockheed and her fear that she would not be able to do her job properly. Employees received two, fifteen-minute breaks and a thirty-minute lunch break. By the time lunch rolled around, she was ready to go home. (24:56-26:03)... McLeod prepared for her first day at work by purchasing a hair net. Like her, most women her age wore her hair long and flowing and were required to wear a hair net or a snood to avoid their hair getting caught in the machinery. She had one or two pairs of pants and cannot recall buying a new pair before she started at the plant. Employees were told not to wear jewelry or loose clothing to work and there were signs around the plant reminding people about the dangers of loose clothing. (26:03-27:03)... McLeod recalls that men whistled and made comments when women started working in the plant, but the women expected it and never thought to complain about it. (27:03-29:35)... McLeod's leadman was a nice, young man who sympathized with her height problem working on the drill jig because he was short too. He re-assigned her to the tail cone section of PV-2s. She and another woman worked in the tail cone by themselves; McLeod riveted and her partner bucked. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod6.mp3 (0:00-3:21)... McLeod estimates that she and her partner finished three tail cones in a shift. per shift. They never alternated bucking and riveting; rather each woman had their own specialty and stayed in that position. Initially, she did not think she would be able to tolerate the noise of the riveting gun, but eventually got use to it. (3:21-6:13)... McLeod and her partner were friendly with each other, but they did not socialize outside of work. They worked in isolation in the tail cone and were able to talk during their shift. Their conversations revolved around their personal lives. They were both in their early twenties, but her partner was single and had more of an active social life than McLeod. She did not spend time with her partner during breaks because she smoked and her partner did not. Employees were not allowed to smoke in the plant, but McLeod broke this rule and frequently smoked in the women's restroom. (6:13-8:16)... Even though McLeod was friendly with her co-workers, they did not have a lot of time to socialize during work hours because they had to work fast to make their quota. She was cautious about making mistakes, but when she occasionally had a difficult time drilling out rivets, she was too proud to ask her leadman for assistance. Once, she practically ruined a skin because she used too large of a rivet. She never did feel completely competent and although she initially thought her job was a lot of fun. it got to be a chore. (8:16-12:14)... McLeod and her husband drove to work at 7:00 a.m. Her mother's helper took care of her son while they were at work. One evening, McLeod came home to discover that her mother's helper had left her son alone and taken some of McLeod's belongings. She had a difficult time finding child care and decided to place her son in Mrs. Jeanette's School, a boarding school for children. Her son stayed in the boarding school every week night for approximately a year. (12:14-14:06)... When McLeod was hired at Lockheed, her husband was working in the tool design department. Six months after she started, she was recommended for a position to teach new employees a truncated course of the skills she learned at Frank Wiggins. (14:06-16:35)... McLeod received a ten-minute break in the morning, a thirty-minute lunch break in the early afternoon, and another ten-minute break before her shift ended at 3:30 p.m. Employees ate their lunch in an area located outside the plant. (16:35-17:38)... Although she met a lot of people in the plant, McLeod did not socialize with any of her co-workers after work. Unlike the young, single women in the plant, her life was consumed with home and work responsibilities. (17:38-20:47)... McLeod was eager to move into an instruction position because the pay was better and she welcomed the chance to get away from the monotony of riveting. At this point during the war, she was training approximately ten to twenty people at a time. These numbers increased as the war progressed. (20:47-29:57)... Note: There are interruptions in this segment when McLeod speaks to someone in the room. McLeod learned about inspection opportunities from her husband who recommended her for the position. She did not receive any formal training for the job; rather, experienced inspectors instructed her what to look for and she was provided with paperwork listing the proper assembly for parts. She inspected small assemblies for approximately a month, after which she was reassigned to the leading edge on the wing section of B-17 bombers. She was recommended for this position because she was small enough to fit into the sections of the wing. She details this section of production and how employees noted their work was ready for inspection. She was conscientious about her work because soldiers' lives were at stake. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod7.mp3 (0:04-1:18)... During her first year at Lockheed, McLeod worked in four different positions. From working on the drill jig and riveting the tail cone, she was promoted to an instruction position and then to an inspector. Although she could not recall the figures, her wages increased when she moved into instruction and inspection. (1:18-5:49)... During the hiring process at Lockheed, McLeod agreed to become a member of the union. Her opinion of the union was initially negative because her father was very critical of the union when he was employed with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Eventually, she began to see the union as an important force in workers' lives. At some point, she became a shop steward. The one union meeting that she attended only confirmed her negative feelings about unions. (5:49-8:13)... During the period McLeod worked as an inspector, men in her section outnumbered women. She was the only woman in the wing section working as an inspector. She enjoyed her work and never had any problems with the production workers or her supervisors. Although some men probably reacted negatively to her, she was not aware of it. Looking back, some of the comments that men made to women would be considered sexual harassment by current definitions. In her day, however, "things like that were just part of the job. That's what it was like to be a woman thirty years ago." (8:13-9:46)... Note: There is interruption in this segment when McLeod speaks to someone in the house. During the war, McLeod worked six days a week. Although she doesn't believe that Lockheed had to have special permission for women to work overtime, there were rules restricting women from carrying materials over a certain weight. Sometimes the men complained about that. There was room to sit down when she worked on a jig, but she had to stand the entire time she riveted. (9:46-10:54)... When she became an inspector, McLeod's pay increased and the position carried more status. She also had more freedom of movement compared to production work. She frequently saw inspectors slacking off on the job because they did not have to be in a certain place at all times. Even though she enjoyed her freedom, she did not take advantage of it. (10:54-12:45)... Both in production and inspection, McLeod was conscientious about doing the best job she possibly could because her work was integral to the war effort. She once scrapped an entire wing because of poor workmanship. She did not associate or collaborate with military inspectors in the plant and does not recall them playing a visible role in production. During the war, she was housed in Building A1 located on Hollywood Way and Van Owen. When she returned to the plant in 1956, she went into Building B1. (12:45-15:39)... McLeod describes her husband as a happy-go-lucky "debutante." He had no success pursuing his artistic talents prior to the war because of the depressed job market. Although he swore off drinking so that she would marry him, he resumed drinking after they married. He went out dancing on Saturdays without her and did not come home until two or three in the morning. She preferred to spend time with her son who was home from boarding school on the weekends. She eventually learned to accept her husband's behavior, feeling she couldn't do anything to stop him. In retrospect, she doesn't know why she put with it. (15:39-18:45)... McLeod hated placing her son in Mrs. Jeanette's Boarding School when he was two years old. She had to lie about his age because Mrs. Jeanette did not want children in the school who were younger than three. There were several children boarding at the school because many women were in the same situation as McLeod and had a difficult time finding child care. The tuition costs continued to rise as the war progressed. At one point, she was paying $60/month. When the tuition was increased to $90-100 in 1944, she placed her son in a child care center. (18:45-23:13)... When she decided to take her son out of the boarding school, McLeod went to a Women's Counselor at Lockheed for child care recommendations. The counselor referred her to two day care centers. She tried both, but when she picked her son up he was in tears. Instead, she placed him in a daycare center at Washington Elementary School in Burbank. Although she was initially hesitant to put him in day care because it interrupted his schedule, her pediatrician advised that it was better to get him up earlier in the morning than to take him somewhere he did not feel comfortable. Her son loved day care at the school and it was a good environment for him. (23:13-27:29)... McLeod's husband persuaded her to apply for Lockheed's Engineering Science and Management Board Training Program in order to learn tool design and planning. There were approximately thirty people in the course, all of whom were handpicked by Lockheed. Most of the men in the course had several years experience as tool and dye makers and/or template makers. She describes some of the skills she learned during the training course. She was paid to attend this three-month course, which was held five days a week for eight hours a day. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod8.mp3 (0:00-7:42)... McLeod details the kinds of skills she learned in Lockheed's Engineering Science and Management Board Training Program. She was very enthusiastic about the course. There were a few women who she describes as "ninnies" and conjectures that they were accepted just to prove that women were not capable of learning these skills. The goal of the course was to teach how to provide the tooling and [plan] the flow through the plant from the blueprint to completion. After finishing the course, they were expected to fill "paperwork" positions in the planning department. Planning was the highest paid department in the plant. (7:42-9:14)... McLeod was not required to take any aptitude or mathematical tests in order to qualify for a spot in the Engineering Science and Management Board Training Program. One of the most important skills she learned was reading blueprints and ensuring that the proper part or tool was developed from that print. Her husband made a name for himself in the plant when he "combined the ability to read blueprints with the ability to draw in three dimension" and introduced production illustrations to the company. (9:14-11:17)... Even though she was equipped with planning and engineering skills, McLeod expected to be laid off at war's end. Since layoffs were based on department seniority, she was one of the first to go when layoffs began. Her new skills, however, "opened the world" to her and she realized that there were other things she was qualified for besides teaching. (11:17-16:37)... When she returned to the plant after finishing the engineering training program, McLeod was assigned to a planning section handling aircraft modifications. There were approximately six people in the division, all of whom were men. The department was located on a balcony above the production floor. A few months later, she was transferred to the preliminary planning department for PV2V series aircraft. Production was divided into several sections and each section was staffed with twelve or thirteen planners with a woman in each group. Although she was friendly with the other women in the department, she preferred socializing with her male co-workers. (16:37-17:51)... McLeod resumed working six days a week after she went into planning. When she was inspection, there were periods when she worked one or two hours in overtime each day. (17:51-18:30)... McLeod had a lot more fun working in planning because she was not as isolated from her co-workers as she had been while riveting and working as an inspector. As in production, people in planning also slacked off a lot, which bothered her a great deal. (18:30-19:31)... When she was working in planning, McLeod was "railroaded" into becoming a shop steward. She didn't last long, however, because it became abundantly clear to the union that she never wanted this responsibility and was not doing a good job. (19:31-23:11)... Even though McLeod's husband applied for another deferment from Lockheed, they did not approve it and he was drafted just before his twenty-sixth birthday. It was a difficult to deal with, but there were so many women in the plant seeing their husbands off to war. She also thought about going into the service because she wanted an adventure and to get out and see the world, but she abandoned the idea after she found out she would have to hand her son over to a legal guardian. Her husband continued to go out without her until he left for the service. She was aware that he was consorting with other women because "he certainly wasn't dancing alone and dances don't last until three or four in the morning." (23:11-27:26)... McLeod spent time with her son on her days off. She changes focus and talks about various health problem, including the gonorrhea her husband gave her on one of his military leaves, he gave her She was too ashamed to go to her family doctor. When antibiotics failed to clear the infection, she had to have a fallopian tube and part of an ovary removed. Approximately thirty days later, she found out she had an ectopic pregnancy and another operation was performed to remove the other fallopian tube and an ovary. End of tape. *** File: rrrgmcleod9.mp3 (0:00-2:23)... Note: There is an interruption in this segment when the recording is turned off briefly. When McLeod contracted gonorrhea from her husband while he was in the service, she embarrassed and did not consider going to company dispensary or to seek treatment from her own family physician until she realized the antibiotics she received from another physician were not treating the infection. She believes she would have avoided surgery had she gone to her family physician in the first place. (2:23-5:55)... Note: There is an interruption in this segment while McLeod speaks to someone in her home. While McLeod was on sick leave, her son was attending kindergarten and extended daycare. By this time, she had purchased a home in Burbank and her mother, who was also was employed at Lockheed, moved in with McLeod and her son. During her marriage, she and her husband split the living expenses, even though her husband made more money. However, he refused to contribute to her son's living expenses and she resented this greatly. (5:55-10:26)... When she moved to Burbank, her four-year-old son continued to go to day care at Washington Elementary School. Because of her busy schedule, she did not participate in parent-teacher activities at her son's school. When he was five, he started kindergarten at another school that also operated an extended day care program. Her son enjoyed day care and she felt comfortable with the level of care he received. Although she couldnt' remember the cost, she believes that it was set according to one's income level. End of tape.
- SUBJECT BIO - Glad McLeod was a student at UCLA, preparing for a career in teaching, before she went to work at Lockheed in 1942. The youngest of three children, she was born and raised in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania until the family moved to Los Angeles in 1936. After graduating from Hollywood High School in 1937, she worked first as a domestic, and then as a clerical worker after her son was born in 1940. She married his father in 1942 and remained married to him for seven years. Her second marriage was also short-lived (five years), but at the time of interview, she was still married to her third husband. Although McLeod applied for a job shortly after Pearl Harbor, the "manpower" problem was not yet severe enough for the aircraft companies to be hiring women with no previous experience. Instead, she was referred to a training program. Excelling in this program, she entered Lockheed as a riveter and quickly moved up to becoming a training instructor, and eventually an inspector. In 1943, she was sent to an Engineering Management Training Program and went to work in the Planning Department. Despite her obvious interest and competence, she had no intention of changing her career plans, and returned to UCLA in 1946. After receiving her BA and Teaching Credential in 1948, she taught and served as a counselor for the next twenty-seven years, occasionally using her the skills she gained during the war to teach shop. McLeod was forced to retire in 1975 as a result of health problem. At the time of the interview, she required a steady flow of oxygen and her life and activities were clearly constrained by her condition. TOPICS - job responsibilities at Toy Manufacturing; patriotism; attack on Pearl Harbor; child care; husband's work history; living arrangements; Frank Wiggins Training school; training course in sheet metal skills; job specwork on tail cone of PV2s; working conditions; relationship with bucking partner; nonsmoking policy in the plant; work breaks; confidence with job skills; riveting and drilling mistakes; daily routine; child care;job mobility; wage increases; attitudes about the union; men's reaction towards women; gender relations; hours; lifting restrictions for women; working conditions; attitudes about her role as a defense worker; workEngineering Science and Management Board Training Program; gender ratio in program; job expectations and anticipating postwar layoffs; work in Modifications Planning Department; gender ratio in planning; hours andcontracting gonorrhea from husband; taking sick leave at Lockheed; purchasing a home in Burbank; marital relationship; managing household and financial matters in her marriage; and child care;
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